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Post by MugCostanza on Feb 13, 2016 20:43:05 GMT
Whenever we talk about musical plagiarism, we usually discuss riffs or melody; but how much stock can we put into song structure?
For example. If someone wrote a song that started out with:
A riff that was played at a mid tempo pace, which moves into double time (with the same riff) while introducing a lead break, moves BACK into the mid tempo groove after the lead break has finished and finally introduces a new riff used as the main riff for the body of the song.
Would we be able to say that this is plagiarism of a certain Metallica song?
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Post by icedguardian on Feb 13, 2016 22:25:53 GMT
my mind is going blank. what Met song is that?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2016 22:59:19 GMT
No Remorse ?
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Post by DaJester on Feb 13, 2016 22:59:24 GMT
I think using the same structure in a song but different riffs for example is not copying.
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Post by waunakonor on Feb 14, 2016 3:48:03 GMT
I think that in general plagarism is okay as long as the person doing the copying does something creative and interesting with it.
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Post by DaJester on Feb 14, 2016 13:32:42 GMT
In how many ways can a song be constructed anyway. There are quite a few songs out there... It would be difficult to try to create an arrangement that doesn't already exist.
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Post by MugCostanza on Feb 14, 2016 13:47:47 GMT
Good responses, everyone. Thank you! Yes, the song I was referring to was, No Remorse.
I think it's an interesting discussion. For example. Enter Sandman and Trust is very similar in not only structure; but the introduction on the drums is pretty much directly lifted.
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Post by forgotten in space on Feb 14, 2016 20:59:08 GMT
I wouldn't call unoriginal song structure plagiarism..unless you're intentionally widening what falls under plagiarism as an excuse to defend actual plagiarists  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2016 10:16:49 GMT
Plagiarism is only ok if it's self-plagiarism. Other than that it's either uninspired copying or theft (if it's uncredited: looking at you Vanilla Ice) Enter Sandman and Trust is very similar in not only structure; but the introduction on the drums is pretty much directly lifted. But they're not though. They both have different rhythms and feels. There's gaps between Menza's left hand hits which make it more stacatto and there are additional fills to break up the run. The main similarity is that they are both played on toms. |
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Post by MugCostanza on Feb 15, 2016 11:33:06 GMT
I wouldn't call unoriginal song structure plagiarism..unless you're intentionally widening what falls under plagiarism as an excuse to defend actual plagiarists Nope! Not trying to defend anyone. I'm just asking for your opinions on song structure usage. :) |
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Post by MugCostanza on Feb 15, 2016 11:41:18 GMT
Plagiarism is only ok if it's self-plagiarism. Other than that it's either uninspired copying or theft (if it's uncredited: looking at you Vanilla Ice) Enter Sandman and Trust is very similar in not only structure; but the introduction on the drums is pretty much directly lifted. But they're not though. They both have different rhythms and feels. There's gaps between Menza's left hand hits which make it more stacatto and there are additional fills to break up the run. The main similarity is that they are both played on toms. Maybe I shouldn't have said directly lifted; but you don't think Dave Mustaine was trying to re-create Metallica's success with Enter Sandman for their track called Trust? Again, this topic isn't for exact music plagiarism, such as using the Master of Puppets riff in one your songs; but more so using a song structure and feel/vibe. Even though there are some differences in the structure though, I still feel like Mustaine was trying to write his own Enter Sandman. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2016 11:59:31 GMT
Maybe I shouldn't have said directly lifted; but you don't think Dave Mustaine was trying to re-create Metallica's success with Enter Sandman for their track called Trust? Again, this topic isn't for exact music plagiarism, such as using the Master of Puppets riff in one your songs; but more so using a song structure and feel/vibe. Even though there are some differences in the structure though, I still feel like Mustaine was trying to write his own Enter Sandman. Oh no, I definitely think he was trying to make Megadeth more commercial sounding to try and get some of the "TBA" effect. That strated on Youthanasia and reached its nadir on Risk. But to answer your other point: no I don't think if songs use the same structure of feel/vibe is plagiarism. If so, about 95% of all music would be plagiarism.  |
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Post by MugCostanza on Feb 15, 2016 12:05:13 GMT
Maybe I shouldn't have said directly lifted; but you don't think Dave Mustaine was trying to re-create Metallica's success with Enter Sandman for their track called Trust? Again, this topic isn't for exact music plagiarism, such as using the Master of Puppets riff in one your songs; but more so using a song structure and feel/vibe. Even though there are some differences in the structure though, I still feel like Mustaine was trying to write his own Enter Sandman. Oh no, I definitely think he was trying to make Megadeth more commercial sounding to try and get some of the "TBA" effect. That strated on Youthanasia and reached its nadir on Risk. But to answer your other point: no I don't think if songs use the same structure of feel/vibe is plagiarism. If so, about 95% of all music would be plagiarism. Very true! That seems to be the general thoughts from everyone here. I guess as a songwriter, I find this topic of discussion interesting. Sometimes I will play over isolated drum tracks from Metallica songs for some inspiration and vibes. |
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Post by SicJes on Feb 15, 2016 13:59:33 GMT
Plagiarism is only ok if it's self-plagiarism. Other than that it's either uninspired copying or theft (if it's uncredited: looking at you Vanilla Ice) |
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Post by MugCostanza on Feb 15, 2016 14:06:38 GMT
The internet has made it much more difficult for plagiarism, that's for sure! So many people now know about Led Zeppelin and others!
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Post by DaJester on Feb 15, 2016 16:52:42 GMT
After Bleak House's Rainbow Warrior, how about some The Thing That Should No... no wait, it's Rush
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Post by SicJes on Feb 15, 2016 18:04:33 GMT
How does that sound like anything close to TTTSNB?
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Post by Moonloop on Feb 15, 2016 18:10:56 GMT
It doesn't. Sanitarium, however.. Try singing this over Tom Sawyers main riff:
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Post by DaJester on Feb 15, 2016 18:27:08 GMT
Oops, I mentioned a wrong song, but you get idea, Sanitarium has taken some influence from that. Or, more than some maybe...
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Post by Kimbo on Feb 16, 2016 8:04:01 GMT
There's a riff in MOP from some David Bowie song. It's sounds pretty much the same but if it's random or not is pretty much impossible to say.
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Post by Moonloop on Feb 16, 2016 10:05:56 GMT
There's a riff in MOP from some David Bowie song. It's sounds pretty much the same but if it's random or not is pretty much impossible to say. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that it's intentional. The song is Andy Warhol, btw. |
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Post by Kimbo on Feb 16, 2016 10:59:29 GMT
Ah cool, it works pretty well in both songs too
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Post by Moonloop on Feb 16, 2016 11:06:35 GMT
Also, Leper Messiah (the title) is taken from Ziggy Stardust.
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Post by Kimbo on Feb 16, 2016 11:52:52 GMT
Yeah that's true
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Post by DaJester on Feb 16, 2016 12:08:12 GMT
There's a riff in MOP from some David Bowie song. It's sounds pretty much the same but if it's random or not is pretty much impossible to say. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that it's intentional. The song is Andy Warhol, btw. Do you know specific time where the original is in David Bowie's song, I didn't notice it... |
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Post by MugCostanza on Feb 16, 2016 12:56:09 GMT
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that it's intentional. The song is Andy Warhol, btw. Do you know specific time where the original is in David Bowie's song, I didn't notice it... 0:51 And then 6:19 |
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Post by DaJester on Feb 16, 2016 13:39:59 GMT
Thanks for that Mug.
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Post by waunakonor on Feb 16, 2016 21:16:14 GMT
Plagiarism is only ok if it's self-plagiarism. Other than that it's either uninspired copying or theft (if it's uncredited: looking at you Vanilla Ice) But they're not though. They both have different rhythms and feels. There's gaps between Menza's left hand hits which make it more stacatto and there are additional fills to break up the run. The main similarity is that they are both played on toms. Again, this topic isn't for exact music plagiarism, such as using the Master of Puppets riff in one your songs; You mean the Death and Domination riff?  |
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Post by ford71V8 on Feb 17, 2016 0:01:07 GMT
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that it's intentional. The song is Andy Warhol, btw. Yeah Kirk spoke about him and Cliff loving Hunky Dory album and they used that piece when writing MOP. Its odd that for years I never noticed, now I can't not hear it |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2016 2:48:46 GMT
I have a question about this. What about covers? I noticed Breadfan and Fuel had similar riffs and I was wondering if that counted as plagiarism. I don't think it does, both songs are definitely very different and aren't copies, but I haven't heard the original Breadfan so I'm not sure if Metallica played it the same exact way. Nevertheless, the case here is not plagiarism for those two songs, but just a general question about covers like this if they are seriously cutting it close.
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